President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva said on Sunday (23) that his conversations with U.S. President Donald Trump are always "civilized and very respectful," but criticized what he called the "second tier" of the U.S. administration for taking "unthinkable actions." The remarks came in an interview with TV Record, recorded at the Palácio da Alvorada, the presidential residence in Brasília, two days after a phone call between the two leaders that unlocked a new round of negotiations over the U.S. tariff package on Brazilian goods — dubbed the tarifaço ("big tariff") in Brazil — according to G1.
"My conversation with Trump is very civilized, very respectful, on my part and on his. But afterwards, the second tier takes actions that are unthinkable. And we cannot accept interference from any country, whoever it may be, in Brazil's affairs."
Lula also said he does not know whether the measures come from Trump himself or from his advisers. "Sometimes I have the impression that Trump is much better at the political relationship than his staff," he said in the interview.
Phone call broke the deadlock
Lula called Trump on Friday morning (21). The conversation lasted about one hour and twenty minutes and had a "friendly and cordial" tone, according to the Planalto Palace. On the call, the Brazilian leader said the allegations used by Washington to justify the new tariffs — gathered in investigations by the Office of the U.S. Trade Representative (USTR), which cite issues such as deforestation, forced labor and Brazil's instant-payment system Pix — are "unfounded." To Record, Lula went further and said he told Trump the grounds for the measures "are lies." "We have the lowest deforestation in Brazil's history," he said, adding that Trump was "deep down" referring to China when he mentioned products made with slave labor.
The effect was immediate. Still on Friday, U.S. Trade Representative Jamieson Greer contacted Brazil's Minister of Development, Industry, Trade and Services, Márcio Elias Rosa, and the two agreed to meet by videoconference next week. "Ambassador Greer himself reached out. He spoke to me, sent a message to my personal phone," the minister confirmed to CNN Brasil. In a statement, the Planalto said Trump agreed on "the need to preserve strong trade ties" and proposed that teams from both countries meet again "as soon as possible."
According to sources heard by CNN Brasil, Trump asked Lula about Brazil's elections — the country votes in October — and Lula replied that the campaign is proceeding calmly and defended the integrity of the electoral system. Neither side mentioned members of the Bolsonaro family, Supreme Court justices, or the possibility of applying the Magnitsky Act again against Justice Alexandre de Moraes, the network reported.
"[The conversation] has already borne fruit, and I hope it is tasty, flavorful fruit, because I want to keep a very civilized relationship with the U.S.," Lula said, noting that the two countries share 203 years of diplomatic relations and are "the two largest democracies in the hemisphere." "We are two 80-year-old men and we have to set good examples for the rest of the world," he added.
Background on the tariff package
In July, the United States formalized an additional 25% tariff on a range of Brazilian products. About two-thirds of Brazilian export items ended up on exemption lists, but one-third remains surcharged, including sectors such as timber and machinery and equipment, according to São Paulo governor Tarcísio de Freitas, who told CNN on Saturday (22) that "negotiation cannot stop." Foreign Minister Mauro Vieira said last month that Brazil and the U.S. had already held more than 30 meetings since March 2025 on the issue.